Forum Thread

Chicago's deterioration.

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  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    jaredsxtn, You mentioned a special interest in civil problems. I watched a piece about Chicago last night. Police to civilian intercepts have dropped from something like 30,000 to 6,000 and homicides have jumped up considerably. What is a solution for Chicago?

    Street stops down 80%.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    I lived in Illinois for the first 30 years of my life and spent much of my 20's working in Chicago before moving out to Oregon.

    I'm hesitant to comment on the drop in police to civilian intercepts because that number seems absurdly low for a city of that size and I can't find any information to confirm it.

    My personal feeling about crime in Chicago is that of despair. The city made a plethora of poor decisions during the 70's, 80's, and 90's that are now coming back to bite them square in the ass. Building massive public housing complexes seemed like a great idea until it became clear those complexes were intended to herd African Americans into the same area with little hope of ever leaving. Rival gangs patrolling their "territory" began to pop up once it became clear that the city had no intention of actually doing anything other than warehousing the black population.

    Nixon and Reagan's relentless "War on Drugs" then reared its ugly head and began rounding up countless black Chicagoan's, something that had the obvious side effect of having multiple generations of young men having no father figure in their lives. The result of those young men gravitating towards criminal gangs should have been a surprise to no one.

    So here we are. Generations into these failed policies at the local, state, and federal levels and we're still asking why Chicago has so many problems?

    The first of many steps is to end the abysmal "War on Drugs" yesterday. Then city, state, and federal leaders need to redirect the money they are spending on already prosperous areas of the city and send them to the West Englewood, Riverdale, Chicago Lawn, and countless other neighborhoods that desperately need it.

  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    Wow. Graphic images. Do you know if the Mayor is good ? Sounds like a seriously bad situation.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    CHICAGO (WLS) -- As shootings and murders spike one major component of Chicago police crime fighting is way down. The number of street stops by officers has plunged 80 percent this year.
    I had been to the Bahamas in the 70's and then in 94. In 94 it was a mess of run down houses and neighborhoods. I asked our chauffeur what happened because my memory of the 70 was of a much cleaner happier place. He said that the USA got together with England and cracked down virtually wiping out drug smuggling. He said that left the people with no money to do anything. The buildings fell into disrepair and everybody was stealing.
    If customs would have protected our borders from letting imitation products flood our markets instead of being involved in the war on drugs the country would be in better shape. Drawing subjective lines and going to war over them solves nothing.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Read my posted memo about "Repeal of Obama care" the same applies to Chicago; all these places where there are no jobs or developments, nor decent education will go down the drain and will become as I wrote "abandoned". It will become even worse with the Trump reign. More money for the wealthy, no healthcare or affordable education for the poor.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    Should be a lesson for all the people that thought Bernie was asking too much too soon for the poor.

    And the bottom line is all that has to be done to help the poor is start the economy back up. Everything else will improve accordingly.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    It will be even worse; Trump tweeted that he is going to slap import tariffs on GM because of importing cars which were manufactured in Mexico. This stupidity shows again that he has no clue. If he does that, then those cars will become more expensive for the American public. Thus less sales here. But of course GM will then sell them elsewhere . He's forgetting to support our own industry, who had tremendous setbacks (airbag's, ignition locks etc.) over the years and was bailed out by Obama. GM sure will love him for this.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Chet Ruminski Wrote: And the bottom line is all that has to be done to help the poor is start the economy back up. Everything else will improve accordingly.

    That is awfully simplistic and completely ignores the many decades of distrust between people of color and the political structure in city.

    Chicago has one of the most thriving economies in the United States. It's GDP would be in the top 25 in the world if it were its own country.

    The problem in Chicago (and countless other major cities in the United States) is that people of color have been left behind for generations. They, to this day, attend public schools that pale in comparison to their Caucasian counterparts in The Gold Coast, Lincoln Park, and Lake Shore East. That sub par education sets the stage for the rest of their lives.

    You can't "start an economy back up" if the populace doesn't have the education to do a 21st Century job. Assembly lines for lesser educated workers are never coming back and minimum wage jobs don't pay enough to ever give someone the opportunity to rise out of poverty.

    Not just that, but you also have to convince someone who is making boatloads of cash in the illegal drugs and weapons market that a legit job is their best way forward in life. It's going to take more than a $10/hr job to get someone to leave their life of crime.

    I've worked with countless gangsters during my years of social work and it's important to understand that they are only doing what it takes to manage the shitty hand they have been dealt in life. People of color and especially black Americans have been stigmatized and cast aside by the highest levels of our government for centuries and that is going to take a long time to fix.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    The point I am making about jobs is that I don't want people to be concerned that the solution is handouts and straight cash assistance.

    The answer you gave saying mine was too simplistic does not qualify your answer as correct or relevant. In the first place there is no job that cant be trained for in 4 to 12 weeks. Stressing education is an isolated elitist answer. There will always be assembly line jobs in a growing economy. As I said before there are no start ups that will capitalise a robotic assembly line. A robot station is an incredibly expensive investment. The amount of "training" to perform a task by a robot is unbelievably exprnsive where as an off the street human can step in and be operational the next day. Like comparing $60,000 to $1,000,000 the first year. A company can pay a human 15 years for the price of one robot.

  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    Until that "fat worker" bends over to tie his non robotic shoes and exclaims, My back !!!! Well, the robot doesn't have a lawyer. The bad back can't be proven or absolutely denied. What's unquestionable is the fact that workers compensation is paying for the fat workers cable bill for a very long time.

    Another catalog for robotics is dropped into the mail.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Chet Ruminski Wrote: And the bottom line is all that has to be done to help the poor is start the economy back up. Everything else will improve accordingly.

    That is awfully simplistic and completely ignores the many decades of distrust between people of color and the political structure in city.

    Chicago has one of the most thriving economies in the United States. It's GDP would be in the top 25 in the world if it were its own country.

    The problem in Chicago (and countless other major cities in the United States) is that people of color have been left behind for generations. They, to this day, attend public schools that pale in comparison to their Caucasian counterparts in The Gold Coast, Lincoln Park, and Lake Shore East. That sub par education sets the stage for the rest of their lives.

    You can't "start an economy back up" if the populace doesn't have the education to do a 21st Century job. Assembly lines for lesser educated workers are never coming back and minimum wage jobs don't pay enough to ever give someone the opportunity to rise out of poverty.

    Not just that, but you also have to convince someone who is making boatloads of cash in the illegal drugs and weapons market that a legit job is their best way forward in life. It's going to take more than a $10/hr job to get someone to leave their life of crime.

    I've worked with countless gangsters during my years of social work and it's important to understand that they are only doing what it takes to manage the shitty hand they have been dealt in life. People of color and especially black Americans have been stigmatized and cast aside by the highest levels of our government for centuries and that is going to take a long time to fix.

    Dear Jared, it wasn't only people of color who distrusted the Chicago PD. I was born and raised in Chicago, and around the age of 20, I began to distrust what we called pigs, fuzz, etc., because of being pulled over and them searching us and our cars for Maryjane and other things like alcohol and weapons. At the time, I was starting out as an auto mechanic, and had small hand tools on the floor of my car and one cop just about accused me of having auto burglary tools. I was pulled over several times on Chicago's exit ramps near Campbell and the Eisenhower Expressway and asked what are you doing in this neighborhood. I don't believe I ever had a positive encounter with a Chicago cop when I was in my 20's. If I had a black or Latino friend with me while cruising around, that made things even worse, we were both forced to exit the car and stand in front of a cop car while one cop kept an eye on us and the other searched it. I came to the realization that cops were allowed to search people and cars for no other reason other than "looking suspicious".
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Dockadams Wrote: Dear Jared, it wasn't only people of color who distrusted the Chicago PD...

    I didn't mean to insinuate that only people of color distrust the Chicago PD.

    What I was trying to get across in my initial response to Chet is that it's overly simplistic and naive to suggest that giving jobs to people will somehow magically erase the decades of distrust between people of color in Chicago and its police force.

    You even said that matters were always worse for you whenever you got pulled over when someone of color was with you. Imagine how that person of color felt and continues to feel when the police treats them like the literal enemy. A jobs program alone is not going to fix that.

    It's an inconvenience at worst when a white person is stopped by the police, but it's often a matter of life and death for someone of color. I've been pulled over a handful of times for speeding, etc. and yet I've never gotten a ticket in my life. Not once. My black friends, especially in Chicago, can't say the same. To them they ask themselves if this might be the last moment of their lives when they are pulled over.

    How do we fix that? My black friends already have good jobs and they still get harassed by the cops. A jobs program won't help them because they already have one. That's what I'm trying to get across. The issue of crime and violence in Chicago is so much more complex than just giving everyone a job and expecting everything will be peaches and cream.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dockadams Wrote: Dear Jared, it wasn't only people of color who distrusted the Chicago PD...

    I didn't mean to insinuate that only people of color distrust the Chicago PD.

    What I was trying to get across in my initial response to Chet is that it's overly simplistic and naive to suggest that giving jobs to people will somehow magically erase the decades of distrust between people of color in Chicago and its police force.

    You even said that matters were always worse for you whenever you got pulled over when someone of color was with you. Imagine how that person of color felt and continues to feel when the police treats them like the literal enemy. A jobs program alone is not going to fix that.

    It's an inconvenience at worst when a white person is stopped by the police, but it's often a matter of life and death for someone of color. I've been pulled over a handful of times for speeding, etc. and yet I've never gotten a ticket in my life. Not once. My black friends, especially in Chicago, can't say the same. To them they ask themselves if this might be the last moment of their lives when they are pulled over.

    How do we fix that? My black friends already have good jobs and they still get harassed by the cops. A jobs program won't help them because they already have one. That's what I'm trying to get across. The issue of crime and violence in Chicago is so much more complex than just giving everyone a job and expecting everything will be peaches and cream.

    In the old days, the courts used to staple your DL to a copy of the ticket, in one stop on the Eisenhower bound for Forest Park, a cop pulled me over and asked for my license, for speeding. After getting a feel of my license, he ordered me to the back seat of his cruiser, and during a conversation, he asked how many tickets had I, and he advised me not to lie because he said he'd call my DL in to find out. I told him I had 2. He asked where I was going in such a hurry, and I told him home. From boredom, I was toying with the cash in my wallet and asked him if he'd like to have 20 bucks for just forgetting about this whole thing, and he accepted my bribe. But, being pulled over and intimidated wasn't anything new, the CPD are professionals, and know how to prey upon people. My father used to call them professional con artists. I've had my car searched quite a few times. My black and Latino friends were pretty much subjected to racial slurs and insults, and other abuses. It's probably no wonder why when a crime occurs that people won't talk, there's a great amount of mistrust for the cops. If the CPD could ever overcome that stigma, they might actually make some headway in gaining an average citizen's trust. Chicago has had leadership (mayor) problems for ever since I can remember back to Richard J.. Chicago's PD had so many problems, I think laws were passed prohibiting city cops from stopping anyone on the interstates.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    "What I was trying to get across in my initial response to Chet is that it's overly simplistic and naive to suggest that giving jobs to people will somehow magically erase the decades of distrust between people of color in Chicago and its police force"

    Giving people good paying jobs is the single most significant move to improve all conditions. Why are you always against improving economic conditions for the poor. Do you think there is a relationship between economic conditions and crime and violence?

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Chet Ruminski Wrote: Giving people good paying jobs is the single most significant move to improve all conditions. Why are you always against improving economic conditions for the poor. [sic]

    This statement deserves an award for most absurd strawman of all time.

    Have I ever once said that I'm against improving economic conditions for the poor? Ever?

    Bueller? Bueller?

    Chet Ruminski Wrote: Do you think there is a relationship between economic conditions and crime and violence?

    It depends what type of crime you are talking about. Statistically speaking, rich people are just as likely to commit a crime as poor people. However, lower income people are more likely to be victims of violent crime compared to those in the upper classes.

    I also will remind you that you are completely writing off the fact that problems in Chicago are a hell of a lot more complex than just saying that a job will fix everything.

    As I have pointed out, colored people of means in Chicago are far more likely to be harassed by the police than their white counterparts. They already have a good paying job, so your thesis runs into some major issues once you peel back the very first layer of the onion.


    Again - not every topic and problem we discuss on these forums can be magically solved by just giving everyone a job. The world is so much more complex than that.